1.7 Land Discussion (Ideas and Suggestions!)

[BobMcBob Profile]

Ok guys/gals I wanted to present to everyone an idea I came up in regards to the 1.7 server reset*

(*this was written while I say at home with the flu, so please cut me some slack for the rambling nature of it).

Before I get to my idea I wanted to make a statement first. As someone that has been on the server from almost the start but really play or interact until about 6-8 months ago I have a different perspective than most on here about the new server/world change. I think that going forward it is an great idea to do the reset as it does level the playing field a bit for the newbs and old-timers alike. I know that a lot of the community is sad to loose their builds over the years but I think that one of the best things about Minecraft is that the building is half the fun. It sounds like we are keeping the current world as a Read-Only to explore and we should all feel happy for what we have all created together.

There is an issue that I would like to bring up that I know a few of you have been witness to, but I know a lot of you may not realize. A lot of the newer people that log into the server for the first time feel like second hand citizens. The come to this beautiful spawn town of LeoVille and see all of the amazing building and shops that people have built. After a few moments of exploring they realize that they have almost no chance to ever own anything remotely close to town and are forced to find the smallest chunk of land that isn't fenced off just to place a bed and a chest. Now I know that you can't be fair to everyone, especially a new use on a server that is over two years old with builds. While I don't have a good suggestion for how to solve this, other then the idea of expanding the survival map periodically (good idea actually) but I have other fears.

My greatest fear is the thought of when the server finally goes live, the Mods/OPs and Old Timers that are aware of the launch will swoop down and take most of the land in the new world within just hours of the server relaunch. Now I have no issues with any of the Mods/Ops or Old Timers as they have kept this server alive and have built this place literally from the ground up. They are the life blood of this server and it is because of them I continued to stick around and became more of a regular within the past year. I just wanted to discuss how the relaunch could be used to even the playing field a little bit while still allowing the Power Players to have the freedom to claim their stake and build to their hearts content.

TL:DR - Instead of a crazy Land Grab at relaunch.. I have an idea/suggestion below

So here is my idea broken down as a subset of 5 ideas:

1) Have Curley pre-generate the new survival map in advance and have a dynmap of it before the launch of the server. When the server goes launch we utilize the same seed.

(I know this is asking a lot of Curley, but since he needs to test everything in advance I don't think this is too far out of the realm of being reasonable. And if it is I'll send him a 6 pack! )

2) After the Dynmap is created, we screen cap it and have the current Mods/OPs divide it up into "Plots" of land that are numbered. Again this one can be discussed further in how big should the "plots" be, as well as which areas of the initial World Spawn Town are designated as "Non-Player-Build" areas for the Bank, Flea Market, Transit Station, etc. In advance of the Server "Opening to the Public" the Mod/OPs mark the land with Wool/Clay to designate the Plots and Areas.

(I know that this makes for more work and discussion, and it will never been 100% because as we build things will be adjusted but we don't have to cut it to fine grain. Say 400x400 centered at spawn is for Town Use Only, add a 25 block buffer around this area to be safe, and then start to section out "Home Plots")

3) After these "Home Plots" are numbered, have an auction through the forums. Everyone that wants a "first" plot puts their name on a list and they are randomly assigned a "Plot #". At that point they can Buy, Sell, or Trade their plot to other players. This keeps if fair and everyone gets an even foothold on the new map. Everyone will also start with $500-1,000 Coins while in addition to their land they can use for negotiations.

(Please feel free to discuss this as there are other ways for doing it (secret auction, etc) but I wanted to keep it simple and random is the simplest)

4) If you don't want a plot you can choose not to take one. As a bonus for not taking a "Town Plot" you get additional Money ($500-1000 Coins) to build "in the wild". The only limitation is that it has to be so many blocks "out of town" minimum (say 500+) and when you claim your land it can not be bigger than a certain size, TBD.

(Now I know a lot of people have amazing 300-400 Square Block Builds for their personal property (and that makes for some awesome builds!) but what ends up happening is that fills up the map quickly and people joining in the future have no place to build their homes (as what we currently experience. We have so many new people that discover that there is "no land left" and quit to never come back. We need new people to keep this server alive and should do what we can to prevent that! An alternative to this is that every month or so we evaluate during a Town Hall meeting and expand the map as necessary.)

5) All Land Requests, Sales, Trades, Takeovers (!!) should be recorded in the Forum under it's own sub-forum. This will allow for people to find Available Land (especially new players which we can direct here to look instead of spamming chat), as well as get more people to visit to forums regularly!

(Out of all my suggestions I think this is the smartest one. I have found back in the BBS days that if you want the "kids" to behave on the server, let them interact with the community as a whole because they are less likely to cause trouble and come up with good ideas if they feel as if they are part of something "bigger". This won't solve ALL of the issues with them but it gets more Forum interaction.)

And thats.. kinda it. I would really like everyone that reads this at the very least state their opinion in this thread, positive or negative. I'd rather discuss this now than have the server launch and alienate potentially even more people. Also I think we need to change the Server Messages when you log on to at least state the intentions of whats happening with 1.7. I know in the past that I am more likely to log into the server than check the forums.

I would also like to leave this post by saying thank you to everyone on the server for their hard work, amazing builds, and their friendly attitudes towards me and a lot of the other players.

-BobMcBob aka mrbobmcbob aka http://twitter.com/bobmcbob

[VanteS]

Great post Bob, I like the ideas brought up. Let me address plots.

We really want to avoid any sort of official plot system in the new world. Personally, I never liked plots, I've played on a few plot servers and it just wasn't a good experience. Being relegated to a small plot to build on is just awful. Players are forced to hollow out their plot down to bedrock to get any meaningful space. We've seen this in Leoville, where players dig out their plot and erect a giant tower to get the space they want, heck I'm guilty of it. We can adjust the size of the plot to be a bit bigger I suppose but they will never be "big enough" for some players. Plots will immediately be flattened and hollowed out to maximize build space by the owners.

Remember, we are trying to keep TWiTCraft as vanilla as possible, a system where land in the "wilderness" is plotted out and sold to players just doesn't fit. Part of the reason why we decided to have multiple cities in the next map is to give more people the opportunity to be able to claim land near spawn. With Stargates, every city is essentially spawn or seconds away from spawn, so there really isn't a reason to distribute land with a plot system.

Land surrounding spawn will most likely be available on a first come, first served basis.

So how do we prevent large swaths of land from being claimed by individual players when the map resets? In the link below, I've described the basic foundation for each city that I like to call the town square, and a second set of rules for land surrounding the town square put in place to prevent lag.

http://mc.twit.tv/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=935#p5459

Lets say these "lag" rules extend 100 blocks from the town square region, 100 being a mostly arbitrary number at this point. Since we're already regulating land within 100 blocks from the town square region with a set of rules to prevent lag we can add the following guidelines to prevent any single player from claiming an enormous amount of land:

"Since we anticipate high demand for land bordering the spawn region, we will limit the amount of land any single player can claim in this area. We have decided not to place a restriction on the amount of blocks that can be claimed but we recommend that players only claim enough land to build a personal home. Homes near spawn are convenient, pleasant and generally lag free. We want as many players to be able to own land near spawn, therefore moderators will refrain from owning land within 100 blocks of the town square region."

This will prevent anybody from dominating land ownership near any city and it will allow many to have homes near spawn. We'll still have the "land rush" but that is always a fun part of a map reset.

[BobMcBob Profile]

I like and understand the concept of the cities and after reading that post I think it mostly is good.

If you don't want to do plots that is fine and I know that they are never big enough but when you are part of a city I think they should be implemented to cause allow for more people to live in a nearby town. That keeps growth controllable which will in turn keep things from lagging. I have no issue with people still taking up "wilderness" in addition to their town plot. Thats where they could (and should) expand their builds as much as possible.

One of my issue is with people that will claim all of the "Good Land" around World Spawn (The other cities could have their own rules, and a mod in charge of each one is a good idea) and we are stuck with what we have now; Massively empty "space" in these buildings. And by all means I am not taking anything away from the buildings themselves, they are wonderful designs and really make the existing LeoVille look like a town/city!

I mean in all honesty, how many people "Rent" out the Town Houses and Apartments in these buildings? I know when I started to play again I had neither the funds or ability to afford any of these locations. That is neither good Business or good for New Players. There is a reason why new players spam ask from money or become frustrated and grief (a good amount do both because they are dicks, I know); They feel that they have no place to call home so "what do they care then". Speaking of new players, I think the real issue that I never see anyone discuss honestly and openly is that we are not very welcome to new players.

I have seen and talked to DOZENS of new people NEVER come back once they realize that they have absolutely no where to start to setup a home unless they spend HOURS trying to find a small piece of land that someone hasn't already claimed. Heck, I had to go all the way north and spend hours building a fake island to have something to call my own. I was willing to do that where most are not, and I honestly don't blame them. We have a group of very dedicated players that because of their hardwork have become the huge land owners of the server. Again, they've earn that right through resource mining and building great and amazing things. And no, I don't want to see those huge buildings disappear because you think your lot isn't big enough so "why bother". If you think you need the extra space to build something cool, post it in the forum so we the people can vote on it. Building an Appartment? Well I wouldn't mind giving you a few extra plots considering the fact you will be able to support more players near spawn. The Plot Idea is something that I think can be made to work really well, especially arround the MAIN Town.

Another idea would be to build "Low Income Housing" appartments where people can at least have a place for a half dozen chests and a furnace to still be close to spawn. Have them be part of the town but make them small enough that after a while you will want to move onto something bigger and better!

I would just hate to see us do a reset and be plagued with the same issues as always. I think that a lot of people have left the server because it was stagnant over the years, and that will always happen. But to keep this server going we need new people too. New people from coming back and becoming part of the community. New people to build up the economy by shopping near the center of the town they choose to live in. The town that will give them free room and board, if even just the size of a closet. Heck, make the rooms Door-less so when they want a room they can place and "protect" the door to claim it securely.

Think about it this way, if this was a PAY Server where you needed to get $X a month to keep it online, you would welcome new comers all the time and do everything in your interest to keep them around long enough to get that first payment from them. I can understand that people are protective of the server and almost use it as if it's their personal property and don't like to share, but SSP is designed for that. Not here.

The only other alternative solution is that every two months we keep expanding the map 500-1000 blocks. This will allow for enough space for everyone and even the possibility of additional Towns but I am not sure at what point the server will start to slow down if it gets too large.

Anyways thanks Vantes for commenting but I hope that this gets turned into a large thread with people discussing this as I think it is something that we should be talking about BEFORE the new server starts.


-BobMcBob aka mrbobmcbob aka http://twitter.com/bobmcbob

[VanteS]

I love the apartment idea and a few players have already talked about building some for new players as a sort of "temp" home like a hostel. More buildings we should encourage near spawn could be other community builds like an arena or horse track. Also, the map will be expanding as it ages, maybe 1000 or so blocks after every major update.

[Timberwolf1777]

BobMCBob, just a piece from my experience from the first few months of TWiTCraft after launch in April 2012: It really took a long time to claim all of the good land (the stuff right on the wilderness edge) around Leoville. Most of the north and west stuff that was close went quick but the south and east sides had huge unclaimed plots along the edge for up to 5 months after launch. With multiple cities to choose from in this reset, I really dont think that a massive spawn land grab will be that large of an issue for a while.

EDIT: In response to the welcoming of new players, many of us do try to help. For example, new players who ask for help respectfully rather than spam chat asking for coins are often treated well. Personally, If they ask the right way, I have helped many newbies by giving them iron armor, tools, a free horse, food, and some beginner advise to get them started in the right direction. Very often they dont listen and sadly start griefing and get a ban. This is out of anyone's control.
Talking about the economy is nice but its not the new players who drive it. It is the builders. Certain players adore building massive projects and utilize tools and blocks like crazy. These are the players that make it interesting for shop owners to invest the time in running a shop.

[HGLCraft Profile]

Talking about the economy is nice but its not the new players who drive it. It is the builders. Certain players adore building massive projects and utilize tools and blocks like crazy. These are the players that make it interesting for shop owners to invest the time in running a shop.

I was a relative late starter (6 or so months in), so reflecting on my experience - it was not hard to find wilderness to build in. Getting familiar with the economy etc. took a bit longer and when I wanted to build a lighthouse - that's when I went shopping as it needed a lot of wool!

The biggest barrier to players on TwitCraft is perseverance, you cannot just jump on a go for it - you have to be prepared for a long commitment right from the start - this puts a lot of players off (because they just want to play), but I think it is actually good for the community that way - quality over quantity

[BobMcBob Profile]

Thanks for the replies back. I wanted to start a discussion and it looks like my goal of that has been accomplished.

In regards to helping new players, I have never said that the community hasn't helped them. We have all had a hand in helping people that are both new to the server as well as completely new to the game. If you've read into my statements on not helping new players than I apologize as it wasn't directed to anyone personally. I just see a lot of new people join up and get discouraged that they have no where to start placing blocks before they are told that it is someone else's land, or that they are told to look for land and spend hours trying to find an "empty" parcel.

And trust me I understand that we will always have people log in and cause trouble and grief and other than monitoring and banning or going whitelist only, there is no way to stop that.

As for the frustration of being a new player and realizing that it will be a long journey to make something awesome.. well thats the entire point of the game! I think that the players that WANT to be here understand that.. thats the entire point of Minecraft. And I'm not saying that they should be babied or coddled, just that they have the same opportunity as the people that have been here forever.

Maybe an idea is to have a lot of "Open Parks" in the town that are not able to be grabbed right away and that down the road (3-6 months, next major release, etc) they will be opened up for people to grab again under a different Land Rush opportunity? (Keeps the towns fresh!)

With the idea of Cities/Town acting as hubs I understand that the land will be more plentiful around these areas to claim while still satisfying the ability to live in a city. But even with other towns the World Spawn Town (NeoLeoVille I guess) will still Always be the first town new players will see and by default will always have a majority share of all user interactions. It will presumable also be where the Resource Portal for the whole server will be located as well. It will also be the location of "/MVS" as well. I think in the end these advantages will actually cause most of the other towns to be ghost towns, even if they offer land for users. They will just Teleport/Travel to NeoLeoVille if they want to anything.

A better idea would be that World Spawn and Resource World (portal) be at the center of the Transport Hub. From there you will be able to travel to the City/Town of your choosing and that would help "spread the wealth" (wealth being Land, Shops, etc) and resolve 80% of the issues I brought up.

To solve the other percent I do think that for the first 30-60 days we should have a Build Limit Size, with maybe a buffer in between neighboring players of XX blocks. After a certain amount of time that land can be opened up and the neighbors and resolve how much of that buffer between them they want to give up.

To summarize this because again I'm babbling on.. I just don't want to be the player that logs on 2 hours after the reset and feel like all "the good land" is gone, and more importantly, I don't want to have new players feel the same way.

Discuss.

Thanks,

-BobMcBob aka mrbobomcbob aka http://twitter.com/bobmcbob

[blendermf]

Most likely, there won't really be a default spawn (although you could consider the center 'NeoLeoVille' as you put it as one) but when you come in to the lobby you will be able to right there and then choose between the 5 cities. NeoLeoVille is not really for sure the first one you'll see. Especially since the stargate dial will stay where the last person had it, so if you come in it could be set to one of the other cities. There won't just be a 'survival portal', NewLeoVille it's just one of the options.

There will be a stargate in each city that brings you to each other city. Now obviously there will be a good amount of people still choosing the NeoLeoVille but I'm really not sure there's any way to stop it.

Also, I'm just going to throw some things out there. I came on to the server pretty late (relatively speaking). I was there like the first day, and then disappeared for months. By that time the main city was built up, and I did have to go way out, so I know what you're talking about as far as how it feels as a new player. One thing I think is hard is, no matter what, we sort of have to let the current active players take a spot in each city, they deserve that.

Now obviously we need to make sure they don't take large portions of land. This is something we will be enforcing in the area right by spawn, not just via region limits. If a build is too big, we will have to put an end to it. I don't think we're going to set a hard limit, but like enough for a normalish house, not a giant compound.

It's also enforced in general by region limits (now we know region sizes can be used in not the exact way we want them, mostly because of how the limit is calculated). The good thing is, this time, we are eliminated certain exploits that allow players to take multiple regions, or regions that completely bypass the size limit. So at least at the beginning, players will only be able to protect one thing, that's relatively small.

Honestly though, no matter how we limit this, the cities will fill up, it's inevitable. Maybe every once and a while (after a good amount of time) we just start copying old builds out of cities (ones where the player has been active for 3 or 4 or 5 months, longer than the normal requested transfer time). Idk how we'd manage that on our end, but it could be a thing to look at.

I think with the transportation set up though, players will be more likely to build in the wilderness, because you'll always be close-ish to a transportation hub, and with 5 cities it will take much longer for things to fill up for the players who don't go to the wilderness.

[Inertpyro Profile]

I don't think it will be very hard at all to find land to build on. Even in the current world I found a large amount of untouched area to build on. All depends on how far you want to travel. First thing I am doing is finding my self a remote section on the map and building there.

[blendermf]

Yeah, if people want to build large things, going out to the wilderness is your best bet.

And I think most of the people building massive things already know that. They may also have a small place close to spawn, but that's ok.

The biggest problem before for people who wanted to build remotely, was that you ended up being really far away from spawn and it was hard to get other people close to you to see your builds or help out or whatever. The city hubs should help with that.

[gregor1942 Profile]

with stargate as long as it does the water effect (like when you go into the old <DC> maps) I will be pleases as punch

[VanteS]

But even with other towns the World Spawn Town (NeoLeoVille I guess) will still Always be the first town new players will see and by default will always have a majority share of all user interactions. It will presumable also be where the Resource Portal for the whole server will be located as well. It will also be the location of "/MVS" as well. I think in the end these advantages will actually cause most of the other towns to be ghost towns, even if they offer land for users.

As Blender pointed out above, this is not necessarily the case. Whatever city the last person used the stargate to travel to will be the default city new players first visit, unless they change the dial themselves. Also, all multiverse portals will be probably be replaced by stargates, so there won't be just one multiverse portal to the resource world. There will most likely be a tick on the stargate dial to get to the resource world. How this actually gets implemented is really up to Curley but imagine TWiTCraft without multiverse, this negates the argument that neoLeoville will remain the defacto "spawn" with the resource world portal there, /mvs and it being the default spawn in location.

An idea I had to help get new players to wilderness would be to set up a rail from each town square that transports riders to wilderness. Call it the "Wilderness Rail" and keep extending the track a few hundred blocks every month or so. If a new player asks, "Where can I build?", we can respond, "Take the wilderness rail!". Simple.

[Warriorbox Profile]

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An idea I had to help get new players to wilderness would be to set up a rail from each town square that transports riders to wilderness. Call it the "Wilderness Rail" and keep extending the track a few hundred blocks every month or so. If a new player asks, "Where can I build?", we can respond, "Take the wilderness rail!". Simple.

I really like this idea

[SWfan85 Profile]

As for regions, have the mods considered removing the "third dimension" of the region limits? (Make the regions a certain number of blocks squared instead of cubed?) I'm thinking of this for players that like to build vertically (like myself and a few others with towers). My suggestion would be about 4100 square blocks, which is roughly 64x64, which is roughly the size of an acre (using real life measurements and conversions). This would give room for a home, farm, animal pens, and a little extra space and have it all be relatively protected from the stray griefer due to the region. Just a thought.

[Timberwolf1777]

Considering that the current region limit is 30,000 and making a 64x64x256 region is over 1,000,000 blocks, you might be asking for a bit too big of a change. Maybe a 32x32x256 region would be a better pitch

[blendermf]

As for regions, have the mods considered removing the "third dimension" of the region limits? (Make the regions a certain number of blocks squared instead of cubed?) I'm thinking of this for players that like to build vertically (like myself and a few others with towers). My suggestion would be about 4100 square blocks, which is roughly 64x64, which is roughly the size of an acre (using real life measurements and conversions). This would give room for a home, farm, animal pens, and a little extra space and have it all be relatively protected from the stray griefer due to the region. Just a thought.

WorldGaurd only allows us to limit the region size by volume.

It's a thing that really annoys me. I wish we could limit it by each dimension (and maybe volume at the same time).

I'm not sure why it annoys me so much, because most people don't abuse it in the ways that you could.