From the outside

[pixelsinner Profile]

Hello.

I'm Denis (pixelsinner) and I'm fairly new/casual on TwitCraft. I've been trying to give a bit of input to this great decision we are all concerned about whenever more senior members talk about it, but in reality my opinion is worth jackpoop. I'm not minimizing my own opinion or fetching sympathy: I genuinely believe in more or less organized hierarchy and being a non-builder, non-merchant and non-knowledgable member makes my views blantly irrelevant on this top of the pile matter. (To be honest, I'm happy this way since my real life is riddled with critical decisions I need to make and I play Minecraft, I don't work Minecraft...)

Anyway here is where I'm going with my spiel: 1.7 is nearing and it seems from what I read and listened to (halfway through the town hall) that we don't seem any closer to a final decision. As a casual I'm unsure exactly what's going to happen and I doubt my opinions would weigh in (NOT a slam, I actually agree). However the schism is growing between members and I think this hurts us all: what I like about this server is the laid back, friendly atmosphere combined with true survival building. I fear the longer we take to decide, the deeper the divide will be between the groups.

And, well, within it all my motivation to play is diminishing only because I have no idea if it's worth doing anything in the current survival world or not. I mean, it's just a game but since building is the main idea of the game it makes it a bit pointless to keep on doing it right now.

Unfortunately I have nothing to offer and no magical solution. I know this is a sensitive issue and I honestly salute the attempt of the mods at trying to please the community as best they can. But I can say I will be behind pretty much any decision that is made. In that light a bit of insight, a timeline, a "this is what we are leaning towards" sort of reply from someone in authority would be great.

I apologize if I'm only speaking for myself and feel free to delete this post if I am, I will take no offense to it! If others do feel as I, don't hesitate to raise your hand.

Thanks

[Warriorbox Profile]

, a "this is what we are leaning towards" sort of reply from someone in authority would be great.

That's what I am hoping for.. see my thread addressed to the Founding Fathers...

88 views and one reply so far..

Warriorbox.. ever hopeful

ps.. of course your views count pixelsinner. Thanks for putting them out here.

[Timberwolf1777]

New player or veteran ... everyone's voice should have equal value. Thank you for using yours.

The reason this is such a big issue for many/most of the veterans is that we have been pitching around ideas that will help reinspire us on the main twitcraft survival map for a long time with only a very few of the ideas being implemented in the last 12 months and communication from the decision makers being somewhat nonexistant. So since changes to our world don't seem to happen as frequently as we need/want them to, the idea of starting from scratch in order to put those changes into a new place will then force the issue a bit.

As for losing inspiration, it seems that that has hit almost all of us. Most of the veterans are off doing other games or playing FTB these days. I actually got reinspired recently as I came to peace with the fact that either my work will stay or it wont. If the world stays, so do I. If it gets a clean reset, Im out. Since its so simple for me, Im happy to keep working at least until I hear definitively either way.

Anyway, thanks again for your post and your participation.

-Timber

[blendermf]

Hello.

I'm Denis (pixelsinner) and I'm fairly new/casual on TwitCraft. I've been trying to give a bit of input to this great decision we are all concerned about whenever more senior members talk about it, but in reality my opinion is worth jackpoop. I'm not minimizing my own opinion or fetching sympathy: I genuinely believe in more or less organized hierarchy and being a non-builder, non-merchant and non-knowledgable member makes my views blantly irrelevant on this top of the pile matter. (To be honest, I'm happy this way since my real life is riddled with critical decisions I need to make and I play Minecraft, I don't work Minecraft...)

Anyway here is where I'm going with my spiel: 1.7 is nearing and it seems from what I read and listened to (halfway through the town hall) that we don't seem any closer to a final decision. As a casual I'm unsure exactly what's going to happen and I doubt my opinions would weigh in (NOT a slam, I actually agree). However the schism is growing between members and I think this hurts us all: what I like about this server is the laid back, friendly atmosphere combined with true survival building. I fear the longer we take to decide, the deeper the divide will be between the groups.

And, well, within it all my motivation to play is diminishing only because I have no idea if it's worth doing anything in the current survival world or not. I mean, it's just a game but since building is the main idea of the game it makes it a bit pointless to keep on doing it right now.

Unfortunately I have nothing to offer and no magical solution. I know this is a sensitive issue and I honestly salute the attempt of the mods at trying to please the community as best they can. But I can say I will be behind pretty much any decision that is made. In that light a bit of insight, a timeline, a "this is what we are leaning towards" sort of reply from someone in authority would be great.

I apologize if I'm only speaking for myself and feel free to delete this post if I am, I will take no offense to it! If others do feel as I, don't hesitate to raise your hand.

Thanks

I put a lot of my thoughts in WarriorBox's thread so you just read it there. As far as a timeline, really can't say. It'll be a while before on a technical level we'll be able to move anyways, and even so, it seems there is no consensus as to what will happen. I'm leaning towards full reset personally(as I explain in the other post), but I know there are people who will be gone if we go with that, and that sucks. Also, when I say I'm leaning that way, it doesn't mean we as a mod group have come close to decision on that, and it's hard when we're not entirely sure what the community as a whole wants yet or is willing to sacrifice.

I know we put a lot of talk into moving big structures, but idk, I've kinda lost interest in that personally. It causes too many problems, and be potentially more drama filled than a complete reset. I still really like the cities idea and the transportation stuff.

[Timberwolf1777]

Blender,

I am asking you a question in this thread because I do not want to post anything in WB's thread that is centered on moderator only replies. You used the word "fair" a lot when talking about a world reset. Just like it is completely unfair for only some players to bring their builds into a new world when others can't, don't you think it is also completely unfair to tell the players that have been here the longest and invested astronomical amounts of time in transit systems, mining, shops, etc to help keep the community running and build the builds they love, "Sorry. Guess what? All that time you spent gathering blocks and coins and building stuff? Yeah we are throwing it all away and now you have to start all over in the same position as the 8 year old who griefed your house last month?"

I will, of course, support the best decision for the community. But please don't use word's like "fair" to talk about any of this. There is no fair solution. Just a decision that will best serve the community as a whole. Only each one of us individually knows the specific circumstances we can live with and keep playing on TWiTCraft with.

[blendermf]

Look, when I say mean to be fair, I mean treating people equally. If were going to move stuff we'd have to draw a line somewhere, and there's a lot of other players who would feel that was unfair, and it would cause issues. If it was a full reset, everyone's on the same level, and that's what I mean by that. And I know, the solution can't really be totally fair, but IMO it can be fairer, and better for the whole community.

The problem is, I know there is a lot of people who still really enjoy the game, and put a lot of work into their stuff, and don't have anything super impressive, but would hate to lose it, and I don't necessarily think it's fair that only those big ones get moved, or people with the most money.

Does it suck that it would result in a lot of hard work going away (in that it couldn't be used or modified anymore) yes, is it unfair just in a general sense, not necessarily compared to other players, yeah probably. That doesn't really just apply to the super hardcore members of our community.

Like I said in all those posts, that was just completely my opinions on the matter. It is up to the community in the end, so if you think I'm wrong, and most of the community thinks so then none of my opinions matter. Really I've said from the start to take my opinions with a grain of salt, because I don't have gigantic builds like a lot of you guys, so I may not understand it.

You guys can have a different opinion on what's fair or right, that's fine. This is not my decision in the end. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word fair per se, but I did, so whatever.

If we want to just extend the map, and add transportation in the end, that's fine, I can deal with that, just personally I think the full reset is the best option.

If you want me to be completely honest, in my head full reset is what I like most, and always have, but I was of the opinion for a bit that transferring large structures would make the move less painful for the community, and if that ends up still being true, than I'm still for it, but increasingly I'm not sure if it would be better, unless we were super diligent about preventing any sort of sneakiness on that front. If we were to still do it, I'm of the opinion that those would be locked down, and purely landmarks, but that's not really any different than leaving a 'read' only old world up for people explore.

The biggest problem right now is that the community doesn't have any form of consensus, and I don't want to force our choices on everyone, unless it's a technical or management issue. It's getting worrying as we get closer to 1.7.

[Timberwolf1777]

Thank you for the response Blender. I didn't mean to leap on the whole "fair" thing as anything personal. Im just tired of hearing about whats fair and what isn't, when there is nothing fair involved for everyone in a map reset solution of any type. Some group of people will feel they got shafted and leave or not as they each see fit no matter what option is chosen as the "best" reset solution.

That said, I do want to support what is best for the community as a whole. As such I think we need to put it to a preliminary vote and see what kind of numbers we are dealing with here. If its a landslide majority one way or the other then we will at least know where we stand even if its gonna be a while before anything changes. That way we can cease the runaround conversations that seem to be walking in circles.

[pixelsinner Profile]

Thanks for the reply Blender (and thanks for the vote of confidence guys

Like Timber said, I think we need a referendum or something. Now is there a way to do this, technically speaking? Is it even possible to have a survey that reaches everyone? If so, then we should chart up a few common options and just do it. Maybe online survey with a server broadcast upon connect with the url or something...?

D

[blendermf]

Thank you for the response Blender. I didn't mean to leap on the whole "fair" thing as anything personal. Im just tired of hearing about whats fair and what isn't, when there is nothing fair involved for everyone in a map reset solution of any type. Some group of people will feel they got shafted and leave or not as they each see fit no matter what option is chosen as the "best" reset solution.

That said, I do want to support what is best for the community as a whole. As such I think we need to put it to a preliminary vote and see what kind of numbers we are dealing with here. If its a landslide majority one way or the other then we will at least know where we stand even if its gonna be a while before anything changes. That way we can cease the runaround conversations that seem to be walking in circles.

I wasn't really trying to take it personally, I just wanted to make sure my use of the word fair was understood, and that I wasn't trying to say there won't be things that everyone dislikes about whatever happens. It's cool.

pixelsinner, we'd maybe just do a strawpoll, idk. The problem is we always get people who don't trust the polling or when to stop, so I'm weary of that. Some sort of personally identifying(read minecraft/forum name) poll (only viewable to the mods tallying the votes) might work better. Broadcasting it may work, we could also just post it here, and mention in the chat every once and while too.

I think we may need to discuss what options we'd be voting on some more anyways, just so that we at least have a few sort of fleshed out ideas.

A pure reset or no reset vote could maybe work too? IDK.

[Warriorbox Profile]

I still think the 'fairest' (wish we had a more meaningful word for what we all mean by that) would be to extend the map,to bring new features of 1.7 into the map, while keeping the current map square intact, with all the things, builds, property, personal wealth and inventories intact.

Is it just me or am I missing something about that being the 'fairest' thing? Who loses out with that scenario? to whom would that be 'unfair'?

For me its a no brainer win-win.

/me shrugs...

The only thing that denies anyone is a reset/wipe/clean slate. Why does that seem fairest to those who are promoting it? Please explain it to me because I just dont get it.

[blendermf]

I still think the 'fairest' (wish we had a more meaningful word for what we all mean by that) would be to extend the map,to bring new features of 1.7 into the map, while keeping the current map square intact, with all the things, builds, property, personal wealth and inventories intact.

Is it just me or am I missing something about that being the 'fairest' thing? Who loses out with that scenario? to whom would that be 'unfair'?

For me its a no brainer win-win.

/me shrugs...

The only thing that denies anyone is a reset/wipe/clean slate. Why does that seem fairest to those who are promoting it? Please explain it to me because I just dont get it.

Well, I know I said fair a lot, but it's really not all about being fair, the real big point IMO is getting new terrain into the game the best way possible to freshen and liven up the server.

There are upsides and downsides to the extend the map option, it's obviously not quite as fresh as a new map and deals with borders but would still help, but yeah it's probably the fairest.

Full reset, not the 'fairest' (dammit, I hate the word fair now, can we kill it?), but probably the most fresh, and could probably give more life to the server. Could drive away some of the more active players, which would suck, and old builds would be 'gone'.

There's trade offs, and trying to choose between them isn't as simple as what's fair. I would like which ever side we pick (stay and expand, or reset) to be as fair as we can though, it's more of a side issue that accompanies the main issue.

The fair issue in my opinion more applies between full clean reset and reset with things moved. It's not really the issue between reset or no reset.

Again, my opinions only.

Also I'm sorry if I ever acted like reset was the only option and absolutely the best for everyone, and just figuring out how to do it was the issue. I on a personal level like that option more, so that's why I end up talking about it.

[Warriorbox Profile]

OK.. lets use 'least damaging to the majority of our community' instead of 'fair'

Extending still works IMO.

[Timberwolf1777]

Consistency please. If we are going to hold "fair" as an ideal to work towards in any way, then it needs to be applied across all the presented options evenly. Please none of this, lets pick and choose which options deserve to have it applied for the sake of comparison. By the standards of "fair," I still advocate both the most "fair" and least "fair" of all choices as they are both best for me on a personal level AND both preserve my favorite part about the TWiTCraft world: the amazing Builds players have made as active, evolving, & usable structures. I hate the idea of Legida's castles being museum pieces and I wanna play some PvP games on the aquadome floor ... not just stare at them all alone in a cold unchangeable museum world.

[ipodparf Profile]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fair

[blendermf]

Consistency please. If we are going to hold "fair" as an ideal to work towards in any way, then it needs to be applied across all the presented options evenly. Please none of this, lets pick and choose which options deserve to have it applied for the sake of comparison. By the standards of "fair," I still advocate both the most "fair" and least "fair" of all choices as they are both best for me on a personal level AND both preserve my favorite part about the TWiTCraft world: the amazing Builds players have made as active, evolving, & usable structures. I hate the idea of Legida's castles being museum pieces and I wanna play some PvP games on the aquadome floor ... not just stare at them all alone in a cold unchangeable museum world.

Look, I want to do what's best for the community, but in my opinion, fair is a factor, a factor, not the deciding factor.

The reason why I don't think fair needs to be argued between full reset and not, is because obviously not reseting is the most fair. There is no arguing on that point. And yes, it should be taken into account (but it's not the whole story).

The reason I think it needed to be mentioned between the two reset options is because I think it can be argued there. Some people think a full reset is the most fair, others do not. That's really it from my end.

Again my opinion. Also as far as being consistent, honestly my opinion can change, and does, and sometimes I may not explain it great, and sometimes I may just need to agree to disagree. I'm not the one making the final decision anyways, you guys are and i'm just throwing in how I feel, that's it, my one vote, and it really doesn't matter more than anybody elses for this issue (I don't want it to, and it shouldn't, it's a community issue as a whole).

We implement it, we moderate it, and we have our own issues related to that, that can stop some things, but I'm not going to stop what you guys want on this issue, unless it's a technical issue (which I don't think there are any for any of the ideas so far). But we need to know what the community agrees on more than what I want.

[Timberwolf1777]

Again Blender, thank you for your responses. None of the stuff was accusatory or aimed at you or your opinions as personal things. You were clearly vocalizing some ideas that many people think/feel and those items needed to be addressed IMHO. Your time and thought are valuable and I appreciate your taking the initiative to start and then continue your thought process here and argue your points.

-Timber

[blendermf]

Again Blender, thank you for your responses. None of the stuff was accusatory or aimed at you or your opinions as personal things. You were clearly vocalizing some ideas that many people think/feel and those items needed to be addressed IMHO. Your time and thought are valuable and I appreciate your taking the initiative to start and then continue your thought process here and argue your points.

-Timber

Yeah, sorry I made it seem like I was taking that stuff accusatorily (is that a word), I'm just a little frustrated right now, cause I would like to get through this change without screwing over the community, so I may sound a bit standoffish at points. It's hard, cause I really don't want to anger people.

[Warriorbox Profile]

Dear Blender, you explain it great and I am not in any way trying to knock you down or have a fight, but one thing I have to say in response .. the community, as I see it, doesn't make the decision. We don't have any power to implement it. We can argue til we are blue in the face, and if the people in control of the server don't like it, it is just so much hot air. The ones with their fingers on the buttons are the ones that make the final final decision.

That is why I put up my post to just the moderators... I don't think really that this discussion is going to get us what we want, even if we all agree... its the moderators that will decide. If they can't come together and DO IT... nothing will happen. And its killing me, personally, and some others too, that we don't KNOW what they want or what we can expect.

I am hoping that its just a matter that they haven't talked about it yet and don't know themselves.. hence my heartfelt appeal to hear their opinions.

I am glad you think that the moderators will go with a majority vote.. I see three main options we might vote on. Perhaps when my two weeks are done and all the mods have had their say in my thread (sweet innocent optimist that I am that they will all reply) we can have that vote. I hope you are right about it.

[PosterAnonymous Profile]

I keep typing a response and everyone posts something that forces me to modify it for an hour just to find out that it's no longer valid because someone has invalidated the argument I was trying to make!

I propose this:

Moderators, AND ONLY MODERATORS - When is a time that you, as a majority can either all be on a Mumble chat or can elect a representative to be on Mumble for a recorded chat?

NO ONE ELSE RESPOND IF YOU ARE NOT A MODERATOR!!! I want them to step up first, then we'll see who is available to argue this out. OK?

OK.

Now, I'm going back to Cookie Clicker and this awesome New Belgium IPA Goobz introduced me to... Werd.

[t2t2]

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