Economy ideas/thoughts

[Timberwolf1777]

TWiTCraft Players and Mods,

I have some thoughts & ideas regarding our economy that I would like to hear anyone's thoughts on. Some of this I addressed in the town hall meeting/forum post.

Our economy needs a little help. We have gotten into some bad habits. We generate an ever increasing volume of money (from a renewable world) via TWiTMart and the ATMs and end up competitively hoarding it rather than putting it back into the system. Prices are stagnant or continuously fall despite the rapidly growing volume of available coins. This is happening for several reasons. First: The top 5 list has seen its day and should be removed. At first it motivated us to find ways to generate coins and help the economy grow. Now, however, it does nothing but promote coin hoarding for the single purpose of name ranking on the top 5 list. With the list (or access to viewing it) gone, this bad habit will hopefully end and many players will have a large pool of money to spend on things like decorative resources to show off wealth rather than appearing on some list. This will put cash back into circulation.

For most of us, especially with the invention of the anvils, money has become mostly unnecessary. The vanilla version of the game in 1.4.5 is so well developed that spending money is a luxury more than a necessity. Especially for the players with the money. Its a problem when the players with the most money want for nothing and have everything they need so they have no need to spend on anything. I know that it may reduce the vanilla feel, but I believe that we should consider having big ticket goods or services that the rich players want or need that they CAN'T GET BY PLAYING NORMALLY. Some idea examples follow: House lots in Leoville (Say 10K each?), Stargate installations at the destination spot of the players choice (Say 10K-20K for each gate pair), Region expansions (no idea if its possible. I know we cant make additional regions but maybe we can expand the one we get in a price tier system like: 20K gets u the ability to make a 60K block region, and 40K gets u 120K blocks?), and other stuff.

This money spent should ultimately, in my opinion, be placed in the "bank". ATM transactions should pull from the pool generated by spending on Leoville and stargates and such. The transaction amount should also be affected by the amount of capital in the bank. (Like if theres 100,000 in the bank we get about 200c per day and 50,000 means 100c/day and it bottoms out at 50c per day or something) This way, when people spend a lot on Leoville and other stuff, the ATMs can deliver much more money per day and as the account gets smaller, they deliver less and less. This will help take the money spent from a wealthy player's account and redistribute it across the entire community. Some sort of lottery would be great too.

Thoughts?

Thanks for Reading.

[VanteS]

Great post Timberwolf, I agree with everything except for the removal of the Top 5 Wealthiest Accounts list. I may be a little biased since I'm #2 but instead of removing it I'd like to see it expanded.

Maybe once a month we can get a post in the forums listing the top 100 wealthiest accounts in order for us to gauge the wealth of the average player so that items can be priced accordingly.

I feel that there are a lot of items that are way underpriced, I've seen a stack of glass blocks sell for as low as $2. The prices of many items are dropping when they should be rising as the amount of coins in the economy grows.

For wealthy players it would be great to be able to spend a lot of coins on big ticket items and services!

I would love to buy a lot in Leoville for $10,000.

I would be willing to pay a lot of coins on purchasing a larger region. I have a few large properties that I would like to region protect, they suffer from occasional griefing attacks. One way this can be accomplished is have mods region protect our large property and transfer ownership of the region to the player.

Money raised from selling lots in Leoville and regions could be put towards a lottery where once a week somebody wins a portion of that money, not all of it but maybe around $5,000?

Thanks,

Vantes

New Player apartments Now On Sale! Visit Sandy Block Apartments Today! Located straight north of spawn.

[TonkaToyz Profile]

I love the idea of saving to buy a prime lot near the spawn, or paying to expand the region; both ideas mirror real-life very nicely. Soon we will have our very own Beverly Hills!

[Timberwolf1777]

I have to address this top 5 list again vantes. I guess it depends on what we want out of the economy. I have had many conversations with both players and mods about the direction the economy should be headed. If we truly want a self sustaining economy that works the way a real fiat monetary system (like the USA) works, then the top 5 list and TWiTMarts buy signs MUST go away. Both of these have a very negative impact on the viability of any capitalist system. I speak from working with both big businesses and running a small business IRL. No real capitalist system ever works well with monetary hoarding. Saving money keeps it out of circulation and our IRL world economy depends on SPENDING. TWiTCraft's economy will behave no differently. (Why do you think I bought over 80K of diamonds?) In real life people show off their wealth with cars, homes, materials that homes are made from, etc, not by comparing bank account values. The top 5 list promotes saving (for competition reasons) not spending and therefore hobbles our economy's self-sustainability.

TWiTMarts Buy signs also hobble us. Nowhere in the world is there a real buyer that has an infinite demand for certain products. The issue with TWiTMart isn't that it buys items or even the coin values necessarily, it is that the "chests" never fill. It has an infinite ability to convert resources into coins. If we REALLY want a true free market system in TWiTCraft (I know certain mods do) then the ATMs will stay and change their output how I suggested, TWiTMart's Buy signs go away, and the top 5 list goes away. These things are all required for it to work.

However, we can of course continue to hobble along in our very broken but functional version of an economy instead. I am merely pointing out what must happen if we want a true free market system like OMGChad and D5 talked to me about long ago.

Thanks again for reading.

[abigail Profile]

one idea for TWiT Mart could be to turn it into a store run by another player. as it is prime real estate, it could go for a price only one of the wealthy players can afford. but this means that the twitmart does not magically create something from nothing, since value comes from scarcity. i think the main reasons prices are going down is the presence of infinite or potentially infinite resources and anything that cuts that back should help (by that, i mean twit mart mostly)

since it's so central to spawn, maybe multiple people stock it up so that there is always product for new players. it would be a bad sign to new people that the first store they see is out of stock of anything being sold.

[Bahnh0f Profile]

Being an economics major I feel I should speak up, this is going to be long but stay with me. After being on this server and quietly lurking in the background since a few weeks after it was created I have noticed quite a few economic problems.

I agree that TWiTmart is harmful as it destroys the goods and causes an inflation, as does the atm. However, with out those two things there is virtually no way for a new player to make money. I think that the atm should be restricted to new players, lets say on the server for less than one month. This reduces the inflation rate and allows those new players to gain capital to buy items.

It is also increasingly hard to find (sell) signs, which limits the overall cash flow on the server between persons.

So my solution to this is: to rent out Leoville lots with the rent going into a pool for the atm and infrastructure upgrades. Also offer a rent discount to shops in Leoville that have sell signs. This accomplishes three goals it allows there to be one good spot to look for sell signs, it solves the Leoville lot rent problem and, it helps stimulate a good flow of buying and selling.

I do not think the top 5 list is as harmful as Timberwolf seems to think it is. I completely agree with Vantes' solution of expanding the list, let us see the 100 wealthiest TWiTcrafters. In real life the desire to be rich drives people to take risks, start new businesses and, invest. I don't think the list of Forbes richest people ever caused Bill Gates or Warren Buffet to want to hoard more money, it did however encourage philanthropy and, "average" people to want to gain wealth to be on the list. (Perhaps the top five should get together and start a charity!)

Or tax the top 50 or so accounts (I have no clue to how the classes of wealth brake down on the server so an appropriate amount would have to be decided by someone who knows the wealth of each player) like we do in real life, hoarding money/cash has financial consequences in real life thats why people buy land, invest and, diversify their money (aside for the obvious of reduction risk, I'm sure after earning all their cash the top five wouldn't like it if the money feature was turned off or reset, its time for you guys to invest in something. Diamonds or emeralds maybe?). Also if the top 50 are taxed it would encourage people not to hoard money so they're not taxed.

I won't say money has become "unnecessary" as Timber puts it, as I certainly don't want to spend hours harvesting trees for logs, making smooth stone, or mining for redstone and such, so I go to the Flea Market find a newish players shop and buy what I need. Reducing my "working" time and increasing my building/adventuring time. While also helping the new guy out.

A suggestion that was floated last time the economy was in trouble was paying players to do public works projects. This is an excellent idea, the money for doing these infrastructure upgrades should come from the Leoville rents and from taxes. It would be a bad idea to "create" money to pay for these jobs that only makes the inflation situation worse.

By reducing the total creation of cash and encouraging the trade of items through selling and buying, inflation can be reduced and, it would create a fairer playing field for new players.

[asim0v Profile]

Everyone in this thread has made some good points. I agree with Timberwolf about the top five list encouraging hoarding. When I was trying to get my name on the top of that list ages ago I didn't spend a single cent. I won't go so far as to say that's what everyone is trying to do, but I can understand it if they are. Hoarding is one thing, but actually wanting to spend money in Minecraft is another matter entirely, when the game was built so you can get everything by just working for it.

The idea of introducing a fiat money economy into Minecraft is problematic. There is no cost of living in the game. Sure, you may struggle a little bit until you have a house established with a steady source of food, but that's about it. Constructing a shelter has no cost. Food has no cost if you do it correctly. You don't have to pay rent (unless you move into a structure setup to require it). There are no property taxes, payroll taxes, or any of the other things that cause a constant outflow of money from your wallet.

There is no shortage of resources. Let's face it, you can get anything you want by spending a little bit of time. Enchanting was one of the only exceptions to this back when I setup the first high-end enchanted goods shop because it involved so much luck. Yes, enchanting still involves luck, but with the XP maximum at 30 per item and the ability to repair and combine enchanted tools via an anvil, this has been largely removed.

The resource world is also a problem. I get it that people don't want to struggle to get resources and get established in the world, but that removes scarcity. When the resource world gets reset every week (or when Curley remembers), we have an infinite supply of everything. That being said, I like the resource world. It means we can strip mine deserts and stone quarries without worry of ruining the view.

In all honesty, I've never understood the need for an economy in Minecraft. Part of the draw to Sky5 is free access to [renewable] resources such as foodstuffs, wool, and trees. The economy gives a shortcut for people that want to be lazy (and that's how I use it most of the time), but that's about it. Readily available resources means everyone is selling with not enough people buying. There are some things that are still very scarce and non-player-renewable like slimeballs, and for those items there needs to be a mechanism for dealing with them. Barters would be the standard to use. It's dirty and inefficient, but it has less baggage.

tl;dr version: A fiat money economy in Minecraft is destined for problems. Asim0v is a dirty Marxist

[Bahnh0f Profile]

There are some things that are still very scarce and non-player-renewable like slimeballs, and for those items there needs to be a mechanism for dealing with them.

As of 1.4 (Correct me if I'm wrong) Slimes are not really that rare, as they spawn in swamps. This highlights another problem I had not thought of, with the way minecraft changes regularly it is possible for an economy based solely on rare items to collapse basically overnight. The price of slime balls has fallen from like 95c to about 12c. If some one was more "enterprising" they could have took advantage of this and really messed some people up if they did not lower their buying price for slimes, i.e. Buying them at the "new" low price and taking advantage of someone who had not updated their price and selling huge amounts at the "old" much higher price.

[asim0v Profile]

I know slimes can spawn on the surface, but I don't know what other changes to them have happened. I was just using slimes as an example. And thanks for the reminder. Changing my sticky piston [sell] sign right now.

[VanteS]

the top 5 list and TWiTMarts buy signs MUST go away...Saving money keeps it out of circulation and our IRL world economy depends on SPENDING. TWiTCraft's economy will behave no differently. (Why do you think I bought over 80K of diamonds?) In real life people show off their wealth with cars, homes, materials that homes are made from, etc, not by comparing bank account values. The top 5 list promotes saving (for competition reasons) not spending and therefore hobbles our economy's self-sustainability.

Again I disagree with removing the Top 5 list. The Top 5 list hasn't changed much in the last 2 months, there hasn't been a race to get in or stay in the Top 5 for awhile. The idea that we in the top 5 are hoarders of coins is a fallacy. It is very easy to come to that conclusion when you see the amount of money we have but it's just not true. We play a lot and know how to make money. That doesn't mean we don't spend a lot.

To date I have spent over $20,000 on diamonds, I've purchased an expensive home from NgtFlyer in West Leoville, just yesterday I spent over $700 on SGS Payroll and have been buying up stone, cobble and glass from other shops to complete a build.

On the other hand since Thanksgiving my Stone & Glass Superstore has generated almost $15,000 and my apartment sales have generated almost $5,000. For me, the economy is alive and well. Give me some options like buying a lot in Leoville or larger Region Protections and I'll pay handsomely.

Lets take removing the Top 5 list out of the conversation, it would be a futile move anyway as anyone can easily ask everyone how much money they had and post it here on the forums to create their own Top 5 or even Top 100 list. Idea!

As for TWiTMart Buy signs, I agree they should go away for wealthy players. If you have over $50,000 there is no reason to continually sell to TWiTMart to make as much money as possible.

I never liked the TWiTMart Buy signs, I had $11 and pledged to myself to never use the TWiTMart Buy signs ever again. Since then I have accumulated enough wealth from my business deals to generate over $75,000 and sit at #2 in the Top 5 list. If I were to start using the TWiTMart buy signs again to generate more coins it would just seem selfish and greedy, I shouldn't have access to them.

[asim0v Profile]

As for TWiTMart Buy signs, I agree they should go away for wealthy players. If you have over $50,000 there is no reason to continually sell to TWiTMart to make as much money as possible.

I don't think that's even possible without physically barring players with a certain amount of money from the property via WorldGuard (reference), but that would rely on the mods and/or owner of the region to continually keep the list updated.

[Demonfive]

Or tax the top 50 or so accounts

Curley's going to explode when he reads this.

(Much more serious and lengthy post to come once Curley, myself, and the other mods get a chance to talk about all this.)

[VanteS]

I don't think that's even possible without physically barring players with a certain amount of money from the property via WorldGuard (reference), but that would rely on the mods and/or owner of the region to continually keep the list updated.

With a region flag you can keep certain players out of a region and you're right the mods would have to keep that list updated. Currently there are 3 players with over $50,000 in TWiTCraft, so keeping that list up to date manually is in no way a burden on the mods.

Now, you can always get around this by purchasing another Minecraft account and transferring the money to your first account. If your willing to spend real money for fake money, go for it.

One more thing, losing access to TWiTMart also means losing access to the Repair sign and Cobwebs and Circle Stone items. This may deter some from reaching the $50,000 mark and force them spend money to avoid these penalties.

Anyway, I look forward to hearing opinions from the mods.

Don't tax the job creators!

[Timberwolf1777]

Wow this post generated some talk. This is great

Bahnh0f, I agree with a lot of your points. In fact a progressive tax policy would really be the best way to pull cash from the uber wealthy and redistribute it among (where the money went into the atms) the rest of the players. Something like: no tax if u r under 1000c, and then 1% (monthly) tax from 1001c to 5000c, 2% for 5001c to 10000c, 3% for 10001c to 15000c, 4% for 15001c to 20000c, etc. However, the programming/plugin? for something like this would probably be very very difficult. Yes, you could have a second account to "shelter" some money but that would just lower the percentage rather than removing the tax entirely.

We have several factors to think about that we dont IRL. First: as awesome as some ideas are, they just wont be possible to implement in a minecraft setting. We have to make this easy for the mods. Second: A big issue for the economy will be players leaving the sever and therefore the loss of their coins forever. Thats why, although the atms should get a boost from sales/taxes to the server, they should always put out at least 50c. Third: As Asim0v said we dont NEED an economy. not really. Thats why we need to figure out things we can sell (server services: leoville lots, stargates, etc) that are big ticket items that we cant get in game by playing vanilla.

The atms should be available to everyone, however, especially if TWiTMart sell signs come down. They will be the ONLY way to get cash other than selling stuff after that. I think having some sort of incentive for putting up multiple "Sell" signs is a good idea.

As for the list: I dont want taxation. It makes sense in a fiscal policy sense but it will be near impossible to implement and I am simply looking for an easy way to remove the hoarding incentive I know (from personal experience, remember I was a top 5 player too) exists when that dang list is in play. For the sake of argument, Vantes, I will say that you are COMPLETELY different from every other player in this. I know however, that Asim0v, myself, Freon, and others hoard coins and work(ed) hard to stay on that list by selling at TWiTMart and not spending a dime. Maybe we can just have a command to show any player how much money only Vantes has as it is so important to you. As for lists outside the in-game experience: great. I dont see it as an issue. Theres something about active in game coin tracking that is so appealing to hoarding. An outside list will be much less relevant.

If the list stays, then TWiTMart must stay. It wouldn't be fair for players who care, to suddenly be cut off from the main source of coins to even try to compete to get on it especially when most (I know not you Vantes, you are the exception) of the players on it, got on it due to TWiTMart. There would be complaints on a very large scale. If TWiTMart and the list stay then my original post is pointless. lets just stay with our crippled economy as it is. I'll make a separate post about big ticket items.

[VanteS]

Maybe we can just have a command to show any player how much money only Vantes has as it is so important to you.

That would be totally unnecessary and the Top 5 list is important to me, like I said before it should be expanded. We've had the Top 5 list for awhile and I hope it stays, I don't want it removed just because it was suggested by somebody who had abandoned the server for 2 months.

Anyway, look forward to seeing the next post on big ticket items

[Dio Profile]

As someone on the top 5 list, I would be upset if it was removed. It was a fun goal to try and get on that list, and ending up on it.

Also, I wouldn't say I am hoarding money either. A few days ago I was asking in chat for a worker that I would pay to demolish a building for me, and I got no response. And two days ago, I was actively looking in store after store to buy glass and gold only to find it was sold out everywhere. So it's not so much as I am hoarding my money, than it's just I don't have anything to spend it on. I think this is where big ticket purchases can come into effect like buying a lot in Leoville.

What I don't understand is why people are sitting in a thread here trying to come up with ideas/policies to MAKE me get rid of my money. It's my money that I earned, and I should be able to do with it what I please. If I want to hoard it, I should be able to.

Bottom line is there needs to be items worth spending my money on, or I'm not going to spend it.

[TehRage Profile]

I'm enjoying that we have all these ideas and thoughts, but unless the mods are on board for any of these ideas, nothing will happen. No matter how many of us want something, they make the rules and run the server, we do not. It's there server, not ours.

Yes, I know that what I said sounds bad, but it's the truth.

[Timberwolf1777]

Really interesting how much people get bent out of shape and take things personally.

Vantes and Dio, just because I was off the server for two months means nothing. I have been on here since week one and watched lots of evolution, and participated in many creative conversations with the illustrious OMGChad. This thread is based on the conversations I had with Chad and some other mods LONG ago about how to handle an in game economy and make it self sustaining. This isn't personal so please stop taking it as such. I'm not trying to make everyone spend their money. Everyone can always choose. I don't like taxes either. After being gone for two months and seeing that a lot of prices had stabilized (aka not changed) while I was gone but there was also a LOT of capital in people's accounts, I realized that the server is primed to make the economy switch that some of the Mods had always told me they originally wanted. (A self sustaining free market style system) This idea was cool to me and had been in my mind since week one of TWiTCraft. I thought bringing it up and seeing peoples reactions at this time would be a good idea. I saw a couple simple things to change, to make the switch possible so I threw it out there. Its no surprise that the uber rich players love the system that made them rich and don't want the suggested change. The other players are voicing nothing here so I assume they don't care. Personally, I don't care that much either. If you want to keep it as is, and the rest of us don't care, then great. Lets just leave it as it is.

Vantes: dismissing my suggestion as given by "somebody who abandoned the server for 2 months" is totally out of context on how much I really did invest in TWiTCraft and still care about it (obviously). My issue was only with the mods, never the community. And I kept a close eye on it while I was gone through my other accounts.

Dio: I dont want to make you spend your money dude. I just know that for a free market system to work, there needs to be changes (which is what I was thinking about) and some big ticket items too.

[asim0v Profile]

Let's leave personal attacks and zingers out of this; they don't help the discussion any.

I won't claim to understand the psychology or motivations of other players, but as Timberwolf said, I did hoard my cash to get to the top of the money list. I still have the screenshot somewhere. It was just a goal. I actively stopped trying to get on that list once I got to the top. Sure, I will glance at it every now and then and marvel at the free time some people must have to get there but that's it.

What I don't understand is why people are sitting in a thread here trying to come up with ideas/policies to MAKE me get rid of my money. It's my money that I earned, and I should be able to do with it what I please. If I want to hoard it, I should be able to.

First off, it has nothing to do with you, any specific player, or even the top five list. An capitalist economy only thrives and works if money exchanges hands in both directions, which means either people spending money on their own or money being deducted from living expenses (where there are none in Minecraft). If all people are doing is selling coal to TWiTMart and sitting on the cash, we may as well call them points or tickets and try to remove the money analog as much as possible. Want to repair your enchanted pick? That will be 300 tickets.

As I've said before, I don't even think a real economy is necessary. I've been on servers with a barter system that works well. Sure, it's not nearly as efficient as having a standard pricing model. but it gets the job done. Want a stack of obsidian? I need a few stacks of smooth stone for a project. Minecraft is not an economics simulator. I just don't want to see us get too far away from the essence of the game, namely mining and using those materials to craft items and structures.

[VanteS]

Timberwolf, I don't see anybody getting bent out of shape, no need to be so defensive buddy.

We are all having a great conversation that we've never had, quite frankly I'm enjoying how people posting in this thread are taking these suggestions seriously.

It shows that we all have passion for TWiTCraft and hope to see it grow.

The reason why I brought up the 2 months you were gone is because you just started playing again and I don't want the mods to take your suggestion and run with it then find out you've quit the server again. Then everybody would be stuck with a rule brought on by somebody who no longer plays on the server. You don't need to be so passive aggressive with us if we don't agree with you. Chill out dude, we like you and we're all glad you're back.

Anyway, I'll take a break from this thread until we hear reaction from the mods, I think Curley said he would think about it and respond to this post tomorrow.

Until then, TGIF!

Vantes

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